INTERVIEW: Nigeria continues to command respect on global stage

Contrary to popular opinion about Nigeria’s standing globally, Nigeria’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, Yusuf Tuggar, insists that the West African country continues to command a lot of respect globally as it has always done.

In an exclusive interview with PREMIUM TIMES, Mr Tuggar disagrees that Nigeria’s era as the Giant of Africa has become a thing of the past.

“Nigerians do not appreciate the level of respect and the leadership role that is placed on us on the global stage. We do not look at ourselves the same way that other countries at the international level look at us,” he said.

The minister also discussed other issues around diplomatic missions abroad, such as the Sudan crisis, the DRC crisis, and ECOWAS integration, amongst others.

Excerpts

PT: The ministry was debunking misinformation or disinformation around issues of ambassadors from the country. What is the conversation around ambassadors, and why is it taking a lot of time to get these people working?

Mr Tuggar: First of all, the administration started with major economic challenges, you will recall, and the president embarked on very serious macroeconomic reforms like removing subsidies, petroleum subsidy and electricity subsidy and shifted the focus from subsidising consumption to subsidising production, which was much more important.

So, these sorts of structural changes meant that there was a dearth of funds for other activities. And, of course, I think we are the number one ministry when it comes to the impact of foreign exchange and exchange rates because we find that funds for the ministry are budgeted in naira. Then they have to be converted to dollars to be sent out to 109 missions and then even at those missions, many of them have to convert the currency from dollar to the local currency before they are able to spend such currency.

There were even shortfalls because we had so many different exchange rates, and then we had huge fluctuations in the exchange rate as well. This further compounded the issue of funding missions and also funding the sending out of ambassadors. It is something that required time for there to be some stability; first and foremost on the exchange rate and then secondly for the availability of funds, because President Tinubu was prioritising the funds available and applying them accordingly.

This is why it is taking so long, and at the same time, there is the process of ensuring that you select the right people to send to the right nations, which has been in progress. We had an exercise over a year ago where we actually identified the names and sent them to Mr President for consideration. However, it was at a time when he was still grappling with the macroeconomic reforms.

From then till now, so many circumstances have changed. There has been an adjustment, but I assure you that these names will come out soon and be sent to the Senate for screening.

We have sent out competent ambassadors here also because you have to bear in mind that over the years, there has been lopsidedness in terms of career ambassadors that go out to head nations and the non-career, who are the political appointees. We have many competent career ambassadors who we have sent out to man quite a number of strategic missions.

PT: So, categorically, it is the issue of money and funds that has kept the mobilisation of ambassadors at bay. Is that what you are saying?

Mr Tuggar: Initially, yes.

PT: Currently, what we are waiting for is for the National Assembly to attend to the names that have been sent. Right?

Mr Tuggar: The president has to forward the names to the Senate for screening, and thereafter, there will be a request for us to assign ambassadors to the nations where they will go.

PT: So, the president has not sent the list to the Senate?

Mr Tuggar: Not to my knowledge.

PT: Are you saying the list is still a mixture of career and non-career ambassadors?

Mr Tuggar: No, it is a mixture. In fact, even the list being contemplated has more political appointees than career ambassadors

PT: Why is that?

Mr Tuggar: Well, it is at the discretion of the president, and there are pros and cons. They are all human beings from the same country. Sometimes, you have very competent career ambassadors and some not-so-competent ones. The same way that you have competent political appointees and you have some that are not equally competent. By the way, I am a former political appointee as ambassador.

PT: How does this administration intend to approach or combat that issue so that we do not have such an issue recurring?

Mr Tuggar: Well, two things. First is ensuring the stability of the exchange rate. I spoke to you about fluctuations, and this is why President Tinubu embarked on macroeconomic reforms and closed up the multiple exchange rates that we had – naira versus the dollar, for instance. Now, we have a single unitary exchange rate that allows for stability and predictability.

The second is better management of resources. We are ensuring that we send out competent heads of missions, and this is why the selection process is taking longer than usual.

The third is what we did here in the ministry; we presented a memo to the Federal Executive Council that has empowered us to take stock of all the properties that we have abroad, rationalise, and, where possible, go into private partnership arrangements so that some of these missions will be self-funding and become more sustainable and we can generate revenue from them as opposed to just allowing them to sit redundant.

But care has to be taken because these properties are covered by the Vienna Conventions. It has been stipulated clearly that these properties are meant to be used for diplomatic purposes. And each country has its own idiosyncrasies because they have their own domestic laws, so you have to ensure that you conform to their own laws and regulations in doing that.

So, you cannot do a wholesale approach. Each country has to be looked at on a stand-alone basis, which is what we have embarked on. So that we become more efficient, the missions, where possible, can become self-funding or at least cut down on the overheads.

PT: How many of these missions do we have, and do we need all of them?

Mr Tuggar: We have 109 missions. When I say 109 missions, I mean full-fledged embassies and consulates. The interesting thing is we actually have agitations for us to increase the number of missions because we have a lot of Nigerians in the diaspora who are saying that they want us to open missions in their countries and cities because there are so many Nigerians there who require the consular services that the missions render and we also want to use it to promote relations between our communities out there and Nigeria.

If you take the case of the United States, we have submissions and agitations for missions to be opened in Chicago, Dallas, etc. Some are even saying they are preparing funds for the missions, but the government has to be careful because one cannot just walk into that sort of thing without knowing clearly. You need to do due diligence. If you allow private individuals or the private sector to fund the existence of missions, what happens when their interests run contrary to Nigeria’s interests? These are some of the challenges.

PT: In your own estimations, do we need all of these 109 missions?

Mr Tuggar: For Nigeria’s size in terms of population, 220 million people are expected to become 400 million by the year 2050. For the size of its economy, which is the largest on the African continent. For its ambitions and the size of its diaspora. Yes, we do, and for the standing that Nigeria also has globally, yes, we do.

Nigerians do not appreciate the level of respect and the leadership role that is placed on us on the global stage. We do not look at ourselves the same way that other countries at the international level look at us. We should play that role effectively, and for that role to be played effectively, we need those missions.

It is not that we do not have the missions that cover several countries. We do, but there are demands for more.

PT: How soon are we expecting the ambassadors’ list?

Mr Tuggar: As I have often said, it is above my pay grade. That is Mr President’s decision. Mr President is adept at time and making decisions based on temporality, so he will do the right thing at the right time.

PT: I want to take you on your statement on Nigeria’s standing globally and how Nigerians do not appreciate how we are seen globally. Analysts and experts have spoken about how Nigeria has fallen in the comity of nations and how we are no longer what we used to be. Where is the giant of Africa? What would you say has happened to Nigeria?

Mr Tuggar: Global politics should not simply be reduced to Visa and Immigration issues or whether you are fast-tracked at the airport or not. Yes, it is tied to it, but that is not what it is all about.

When Nigeria fields candidates to international organisations, you see the overwhelming support that Nigeria gets, and when others are fielding candidates, Nigeria is being lobbied to step in and support because when Nigeria supports, a lot of countries look to go in the same direction. And not necessarily West African or African countries because we have a reputation historically for doing the right things and for our foreign policy being guided by moral precepts and ethical considerations.

So, when we stand and say we are fighting against racist regimes on the African continent, others know we are doing it now not because of what we are going to get but because we are doing it based on ethical considerations, and others respect us for doing so.

When we also come out and say this is our position on what is going on in Gaza, in Palestine, people know that Nigeria is not right next to Gaza or Palestine, but we are doing it because we feel that is the right thing.

Also, when we say we are voting against the violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity, which is not to say we do not get along with Russia, but we will withstand any pressure and do what is right.

So these are the measurables, and this is what gives us that “clout”. We must not reduce it simply to the fact that we are having visa or immigration challenges. It is partly because there are so many of us, and also in part regrettably because we have bad eggs who do bad things in some of those countries. It is something we will continue to work at, and as we improve, so will the admission and visa challenges and all of that. We have grown. There was a time when we would go to the United Kingdom without the need for a visa, and how many were we then? Maybe 50 million or 60 million, but now we are 220 million.

PT: You say we are getting better, but now we are reminiscing about the past when we did not need visas to go anywhere.

Mr Tuggar: No, I am not reminiscing, I am practical about it. It would not make sense for 220 million people, especially since many Nigerians go to the United Kingdom and do not return. It will not be sensible for it to just be open. We have to be pragmatic about these things, and in fact, we should stay here and build our country to the point that it is others rushing to come to our country, not that they don’t rush, they still do.

PT: But not like they used to

Mr Tuggar: Of course they do. There are even more opportunities now because we are no longer a mono-cultural economy, so people are coming here looking for critical minerals, and there are many opportunities here.

People are coming because they discovered Burna Boy and Davido, they love our music. People are coming for the food; they are coming for Nollywood. They are coming for the opportunities in the startup space because of the infrastructure that we have compared to other countries. There are a lot of things that are attracting Nigerians, but we choose to focus on the negative, sadly. You do not see other countries doing that.

I was an ambassador in Germany when the war broke out in Ukraine. Going back to this issue of embassies that you were talking about and, at the end of the day, there were only three African countries with embassies in Kyiv. I know the number of African ambassadors rushing to speak to me, asking Nigeria to help them evacuate their nationals in Ukraine. “Can you please give me one seat, two seats or even 10 seats?” our policy then was no problem; let us accommodate them. Some will counter-argue and say, “Why are we giving freebies to all these countries? What is in it for us? What is in it for us is the respect and dignity when Nigeria comes out and says, “We are contesting for the African Union Peace and Security Council”, and you see the enormous support and votes that we get.

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All of that is due to Nigeria’s goodwill, and without spending a dime, we see how much other countries spend on these elections. We take many of these things for granted, and when there is a dispute among countries, a lot of times, people say, let us give it to Nigeria to make a decision. Nigeria does what is right. That is why you also see that in times of turmoil, the ECOWAS is always chaired by Nigeria.

PT: Back to the question that Nigeria should stay home to make things work, we always talk about enabling environment; what are the incentives that will keep Nigerians at home?

Mr Tuggar: Now we are going to dive right into the realm of academics because we have to look at the schools of thought on migration and the push-pull factors of demand and supply; people would always move to where there is a demand for work, whether skilled or unskilled. It has been like that since the beginning of time. They will go for opportunities, and you would also find that Adam Smith, one of the fathers of capitalism, always emphasised that for capitalism to work, it is not just about the movement of good and services, it is also the movement of people, of labour. Those factors of production come into play.

But we have the new economics of migration that is the school of thought which says that in simple terms, there are communities in a country and within these communities decisions to send one member abroad as a sort of investment so that they will go there and generate capital that he will send back which will invested in a farm or in buying a house e.t.c. It is a family decision or a community decision. Sometimes you see villages putting money together to sponsor people from that community to go there, and of course, they have a bridgehead where they are going because some people have gone before them. These are the sort of trends.

Nigerians in a lot of places are leaving for those opportunities because of the new economics of migration. It is not necessarily because of conflict that Nigerians are moving to Europe, because in my entire stay in Germany, I never came across a single Nigerian who left Nigeria because of Boko Haram at the height of the Boko Haram crisis. It is all of this coming to play, but this is being addressed by the government.

This is what, for instance, the scheme that was conceived by the government to support investment in youths, in skill acquisition and so forth. These are some of the things that brought about the scheme so that you provide capital for people so that they may not have to leave.

There is also a reorientation for people to understand that when they go out, they are not going for a better life, maybe the life they are living here is even better. This is because they have stringent conditions out there, and they do not want you to go and live in their country if you have not contributed to their social welfare system. It is like an investment; only those who have invested in the social welfare system can reap from it, otherwise they will deport you, and even at that, what this administration is also doing is using business process outsourcing which is a very fast-growing area of our economy to address that. So that even when they return, our migrants, as some of them have spent considerable time out there and are familiar with those places, they can be utilised and find gainful employment in the business outsourcing process. For instance, you call the customer care of the Apple store in the US, but the call is being handled by someone in Nigeria who is speaking with an American accent. For instance, this is what India used to create so many jobs and so many opportunities and this is what we are doing also.

PT: In the last two years, it’s been a rollercoaster for ECOWAS with the ongoing events. How does Nigeria intend to better manage the fallouts?

Mr Tuggar: That is the way global politics has always been; everyday there is a new development. But part of the problem also is to expect immediate results in diplomacy or global politics, it does not work that way. It works on accretion.

Nigeria has been saddled with the responsibility of leading ECOWAS; in times of turmoil or uncertainty, Nigeria is given the lead and we are doing the right and responsible thing. You can see how President Tinubu sort of calmed things down, pushed for the removal of the comprehensive jurisdictional sanctions that were imposed on Niger for instance and the engagement goes on, particularly with Niger. What people do not understand is that you have to look beyond the rhetoric.

The Nigeria-Niger Joint Commission still functions, the Kano-Maradi rail project still continues, work is still ongoing. We continue to make diplomatic efforts to address the concern of the two countries and ECOWAS under President Tinubu’s leadership has still given the three countries the option of remaining in ECOWAS, extended for another six months. These are all conciliatory efforts that we made which clearly show that Nigeria and ECOWAS are placing emphasis on the community (people) because they do not want the people to suffer but at the end of the day, the three countries are landlocked countries and so what is going on in ECOWAS is of so much benefit to these countries. Even if the countries decide to leave today, it does not mean that the leadership in the future will maintain their position.

PT: What happens to ECOWAS’ integration goal when these states do not return to ECOWAS?

Mr Tuggar: It still happens (integration goal), it just happens without them. Remember that the principle of complementarity and subsidiarity still exists with the African Union, the United Nations, this is how global politics is played. When we field candidates or vie for positions and ECOWAS says this is who we are presenting, nobody will listen to one or three countries who decide to go on a different path, so you lose out. If you snooze, you lose.

PT: What is Nigeria’s position on the crisis in the DRC and Sudan?

Mr Tuggar: DRC, it was actually Nigeria that was agitating for the resolution of the crisis in the African Union Peace and Security Council. Do not forget that Nigeria is the only African country with a near permanent seat in the peace and security council. We have been there and again it is because of ECOWAS because in our region, we have been given that responsibility. Nigeria is doing a lot of work to resolve the issue in the DRC.

Importantly, it was President Tinubu that gave the go-ahead to co-opt former President Obasanjo as one of the individuals and leading figures to resolve the crisis and there has been a meeting of the two processes – the Nairobi and Kampala processes.

With Sudan, we have been pursuing it through the African Union and the Peace and Security Council where we continue to participate and propose solutions. We have also been tackling it bilaterally and in this case, we have been working with some of the non-partisan groups and initiatives for instance former Sudan Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok and President Tinubu has been behind the scenes engaging with both sides. However, what we are careful about is not being co-opted into processes that have been tainted because those that have taken the lead or gotten involved have somehow allowed themselves to become subsumed by taking sides or the perception of having taken sides. So, Nigeria still maintains that and we are being very careful not to fall into that.